This is an excerpt from the Iowa City City Council meeting immediately following the shooting of Eric Shaw by Iowa City police officer Jeffrey Gillaspie in 1996. The transcript was originally provided by the Icon; their original notes are intact. ICgov.net has blanked out the names of the officers mentioned in the transcript (with the exceptions of Gillaspie and Chief Winkelhake). This is a public record provided by the City of Iowa City, and the complete record may be obtained from the City Clerk.

Word For Word transcript of Iowa City City Council meeting, Sept. 10, 1996

Please note: This document is public record provided by the City of Iowa City. Icon Publishing Inc. makes no claims as to the truth of these statements.
Note: A statement made by Jeff Klinzman that Jeffrey Gillaspie was once placed on desk duty is not true, according to officials of the city

Novak/ Public Discussion. This is for items not on the agenda. Anyone who would like to speak to us should sign in or put the label on the sign in sheet and limit their comments to no longer than five minutes.

Carol de Prosse/ Where are these labels that I am suppose to paste some place?

Nov/ They are probably at the door and they were probably blocked by many folks standing at the door. So just write.

Carol de Prosse/ I currently live in Lone Tree, Iowa. I still own property in Iowa City and I am just as of recently more than a 20 year resident of this city. Today I went to the press conference, I guess, that the Shaws had at Hickory Hill Park and I am here to tell you folks that these folks are in incredible pain over what has happened to them. They are in grief and they are asking for someone from the city to come to their house and tell them how terribly sorry the City feels. I am here to ask you please someone go to these people and represent us firmly and say on behalf of the employees, the citizens, and the police of this town, we are sorry. These people have lost their only son and they are in pain. I am a mother and I tell you this is the worst nightmare of a parent is that he or she will loss their child before they die. And then in such a terrible, terrible way. Their were other people at that press conference who came up as I did to the Shaws. That was why I went, so I could see them and touch them in person and say I share your grief. Please do this for these people. Do this. It is the only right thing to do at this point in time. And the longer you wait, the more we can all be assured it will not get done and something that compounds the tragedy will then have occurred. Please I beg you, go to these people and let them say to you what they want to say. Let them cry to you as they will. Let them do whatever they might do, call you any name. Let them do it. These people need to grieve and they need to do that, experience that in order to make this a complete grieving process. Please. Thank you very much.

Andrew Wicklander/ Ma'am, Mrs. Novick. You asked us to be cautious in our judgment. Being cautious in our judgment cost Eric Shaw his life. There's a history of police brutality in Iowa City and it is sad that this is what it took to get this many people here to express their opinions. And none of you can sit their and tell me that if your child was shot, murdered in cold blood in somewhere where he had every right to be, that you would not demand, you would not ask, you would demand a civilian investigation. Okay? You would not ask, you would demand. That's all I have to say. If this was your child, you would demand a civilian investigation. Would you trust the Police Department investigation one of their own peers with the life of your only son? No way.

Jeffrey Klinzman/ Resident here in Iowa City. I'll keep my remarks very pointed because I feel incredibly strongly about the Eric Shaw shooting. I work in the neighborhood where this happened and I can tell you of instances where business owners have been hassled by the police. Particularly [officer name deleted], the plainclothes officer pulled over a colleague that I worked with as he was leaving the business and performed a field sobriety test on him and one piece of information that I haven't heard very many people discuss is the fact that Jeffrey Gillaspie at one point in his tenure as an Iowa City police officer was pulled off the street and put on desk duty because of his use of excessive force. These are issues that we have to deal with because the Clay Shaw shooting is not an incident in isolation. It's the culmination of a series of events that citizens have had to endure over the course of the last few years. I think it's imperative that we not only demand a civilian investigation as a permanent civilian review board of the Police Department because I think it's important that we have civilian control over the police. We cannot allow the police to police themselves because this incident and incidents in the past have shown that they are incapable of doing that without practicing a great deal of brutality on the citizens of this community. I would also like to see that Jeffrey Gillaspie be paid on unpaid leave. Why should we be paying this man when the circumstances I think demand that we look at this case, the merits of this case and understand that we have to treat this differently. Finally the culture of the Police Department in large part emanates from the person in charge at top, R.J. Winklehake. I think that we must demand that R.J. Winklehake either resign or be terminated because he has demonstrated and again the actions of his officers demonstrate that he cannot run a Police Department in the way that is beneficial to the safety of the citizens of this community. Thank you very much.

Leora Houghton/ Citizen of Iowa City. I'm only going to address one issue about this shooting. Obviously it's a tragedy in all aspects. When you ask us to be cautious in our judgment and ask for our patience, I think you're going to have to go backwards or Linda Woito's going to have to go backwards and retract some of the statements that she made because they're making people feels that it's the city versus the citizens and it needs to be done before anything else can happen. It's not winding down in the streets of Iowa City. It needs to be something where everyone feels we're going forward to a solution and this is posturing a feeling of the City versus the citizens. Thank you.

Sheila Knopfoh-Odole/ Resident of the city. About two years ago, my best friend was beaten up by an Iowa City police officer and at the time she was charged with interference with official acts and something else, but eventually the charges were dropped because her public defender got the officer to admit that he'd used excessive force. There is way too much excessive force happening in this town with our police force. It's out of hand and there is no recourse for citizens. My feeling is any officer brought up on that kind of investigation should not be given a second chance. This is not someone that I want policing my community. This is not someone that I want my taxes going to pay their salary for. Furthermore this might sound like a radical idea but it's one that I've felt for a long time, I think we should take a serious look at whether our police in Iowa City need to be carrying guns. This is Iowa City. This is not New York, Chicago, Los Angeles. Help backup is virtually instantaneous with a radio call. If we can't disarm them completely, let's at least make a provision so that they're not cops carrying guns on the pedestrian mall and in the d.t. area generally. There are too many people more and more in larger cities, innocent bystanders are getting shot all the time by police. And I don't think they need to be carrying guns, certainly not in the d.t. area. And I think it's something that we should really give some serious consideration to. Thank you.

Eric Rothenbuhler/ I've lived here over ten years. I'm primarily here to demonstrate my concern. I don't have ideas or proposals for solutions but I think it's essential that we all demonstrate our concern and our readiness to work together. To that end I think it's important to enter into the public record the kinds of information that the Iowa City police either do not have about themselves or are not willing to share with citizens. I've spent sometime at the police station this week trying to do research to find out how often officers in Iowa City are required by their duties to draw weapons, how often they fire their weapons, how often they are threatened with a weapon, have a weapon drawn on them. I'm told that such things are only noted in the narrative that goes into a case file and that case files are only available to other officers and citizens with a direct interest in the case. I'm told that there computer system has no method of keeping track of such things and that they do not compile such statistics. When I asked if a citizen was interested in knowing about police officers' use of deadly force, their use of their weapons, what information would be available to them, [officer name deleted]'s answer was none. I paused a long time waiting for some elaboration and there was no elaboration and I said none? and he said none. When I asked him if they kept track of such information for their own internal management, he said no. Now that's either a lie or it's a remarkable case of overlooking pertinent information in the management of personnel who have the legal authority to use deadly force. Such people should be- No one else in local government has the authority to use deadly force. Such people should be trained very carefully and they should be constantly vigilantly supervised and that includes evaluating on a regular basis their use of that force or the threat of that force. And if the Police Department does not have the information to make that evaluation and is not willing to share that information with citizens, then there is no way that we can form rational evaluations of our Police Department and we are left with no other option but to jump to conclusions. In the absence of information, in the absence of a study, in the absence of any data that would inform rational decisions, we have no other option but to come here and demonstrate our concern. Thank you.

Douglas Wunder/ The first thing I have to say and I'll finish with this is why can't the Police Department simply come forth and tell the truth? And I'll finish with that as well and I'll start by telling you a story that, it's not a story but the truth, that I had to deal with three years ago and that dealt and this deals with excessive force by a police officer that we probably for those of us who read the paper today, the Daily Iowa, anyways about [officer name deleted]. About three years ago I was on my home. I live d.t. and let me tell you how sensitive I am to this issue because I'm an artist, and I work late at night too. I was going home and I live right d.t. and there was this brawl or whatever you want to call it outside in front of the Sports Column and I lived above the Sports Column for quite some years. Some guy, I don't know why, it was unprovoked, jumped out and just literally beat the blank out of me, put me to the ground, kicked me, punched me, whatever, he did it. As I was being helped up the first thing that came to my mind was where are the police. Well thankfully I thought at the time there was a police officer getting out of his car, [officer name deleted]. I had yelled and screamed and keep in mind I was quite agitated and I think I should've been. After being beat up you're not in a good mood. And [officer name deleted] after I fanned him down, came over and I said I'm an innocent person here. Some guy attacked me and he ran off. And he told me, I'm going to use some strong language but this is the words of [officer name deleted], he said, you go the fuck home. That's what he said. I'm not lying. Perhaps 100 people heard him say that. I have witnesses and whatever. And I said I'm an innocent person here. I was attacked. I want you to do your job. And I gave him the infamous gesture and I'm not going to go through and tell you what that is. I think we all know what that is. Before I knew what was happening, the guy was taking my head and smashing it with excessive force on the front end of his police car. 100 people were watching this. It was hard for the Police Department to lie about it although they did. As months went on I proceeded with a- my crimes against the community were interfering with official acts and disorderly conduct. I don't know quite how that figures into it but that was my crimes against the community. I did what I was supposed to do and went through my trial and it was a very long trial, jury trial. I was acquitted. Gee, imagine that. But my experience with this is that the Police Department, the police officers that testified against me lied. They denied smashing my head against the car. They said they gave me my Miranda rights. They misinterpreted or lied about how the sequence of things took place and I'm really upset to this day. And I guess I start to question well this was a small thing. But what would happen if something became bigger than that like someone being murdered. I'm sorry. I think that's what happened to this poor fellow, Eric Shaw. He was murdered. And my question once again is why can't the Police Department just come forward and tell the truth? Another question I have is with this it was so confusing to how the system works. I felt very good. I was acquitted for what I didn't do according to the Police Department. It made me feel very good on that day, but I tried to look to see what I can do beyond that. First of all I want to correct what was wrong. I wanted very simply to have officer Winklehake come over and apologize to me. I said that in my official report. He did not do that. How hard would that be to do? To come forward and say look we made a mistake. I'm sorry. That's one of the things I asked for. What was wrong with that? And maybe that's what they should do for the Shaw family, say hey we made a mistake. What's wrong with that? But something else I feel really upset about is that when I looked into civil case I found out two things. First of all I didn't have the money to do what I needed to do and it's something that a lot of people don't understand that don't deal with the legal system. So it's very very expensive. And I was my hands were tied and literally my pocketbook was tied should I say. And another thing that really gets me is that in order to pursue a civil case, I couldn't go after the Police Department. I couldn't go after the individual police officers. I would have to sue the community of Iowa City. I had to sue these people. That isn't right. Why is that? I mean why is it? Why would I have to sue my friends, my neighbors? Why is that? That's not fair. In conclusion I would like to stress again, is why is it the Police Department can't come forth and tell the truth? Thank you.

David Stokey/ Iowa City resident. I wasn't really prepared to speak this evening so I'm not very well organized, but I'll make this really direct. I do not trust big brother to investigate little brother. It's that simple. Approximately three months ago I had a gentleman outside my door somewhat of sorts trying to forcibly enter my home. He physically assaulted me. I called the Iowa City Police Department. [officer name deleted] showed up on the scene. [officer name deleted] after talking to this individual decided that the- he stepped into my face, used intimidating gestures to tell me that he had found many times that callers were actually the perpetrators. I was so annoyed by this I came to the Iowa City Police Department, demanded to see the watch commander. I told him exactly what happened. Two days later this gentleman was arrested for assaulting another business owner on Gilbert Street. Point in case, I would like to look at [officer name deleted]'s file and see if there's any mention in his file that I filed that complaint. And that's what I base this on for big brother monitoring little brother. I'm sure there's nothing in there. They never offered me any type of written forms or anything to put this in there. I'm just saying I don't trust the Police Department to monitor itself. I too demand an independent investigation by a civilian, some type of civilian agency or whatever. Thank you.

Aaron Carstens/ How are you all doing. I'm an Iowa City resident. About six years ago, in Arizona, I used to reside there, my best friend had the back of his head blown out by a police officer. I was with him and the same type of thing went on in the same situation. There was a trial held in the newspapers. Nothing happened. Several months later, they paid his parents some money and they offered an apology. We tried to form a civilian review board and it would not work because the city board members would not back us. And so all of you if you really care have to stand up with us and if we all really want to do anything about this, we all have to get together and get petitions signed and all have to really really join in and really get some change going here. That's all I have to say.

Pat Gallagher/ I want to first of all express my sympathy to the Shaw family. Second of all I want to do what is only fair to the Shaw family and that is demand that this city board decide that it needs to have the civilian review board and that officer Winklehake or Chief Winklehake needs to be included in that review with regards to his resignation or with his being dismissed. I think that the concerns the people are talking about are legitimate and the thing that really concerns me particularly reading the newspaper this morning, is that a review may find that, excuse me, and internal review may find that the Police Department did follow its procedure. That scares me because if they did follow the procedure, then they will decide that what happened was okay and the next step I'm afraid is that Eric Shaw will be put to blame for his own death which I think is a very frightening experience or frightening possibility. What won't get talked about is what could have been done or should've been done of somebody were thinking rationally and not just following police procedure. And that is, why does this person go in alone or accompanied with one or two other officers without announcing their presence first. These aren't my ideas. These aren't my ideas. These are ideas that everybody in the community are talking about. Why weren't lights turned on? Why weren't loud speaker systems used? Why weren't license plates in the parking lot checked to see whose cars were there, whose cars were in the vicinity and finding the owner's car there might've influenced their decision on how to carry out the case. There's so many questions that will not be asked unless there's an independent review board which decides that the police procedures are wrong and that the procedures are so vague that allows anything that happens, anything that the Police Department does to be said we were following procedure. We walked into a room unannounced, shot a person without speaking to him and that was following police procedure. I think that that talks about as other people have done, the whole concern with this department in general, the culture that somebody mentioned, the atmosphere, the brutality that is used on a regular basis. I would include also the racism in this Police Department. And I think that for them to investigate themselves is like somebody else said, big brother investigating little brother. I think in order to remain or maintain any sort of legitimacy, this council has to decide for an independent civilian review board and call for the resignation of Chief Winklehake. Thanks.

J. Martin/ I've been an Iowa City resident for seven years and I wish ten days ago the Iowa City would've acted with caution and patience like you asked us to act. I came yesterday to hear the press conference and there was a question asked, has policy been looked at? Has it been changed since this, I think, killing occurred. The police chief said, no it hasn't. And I'd like to know why. Why? That means that this could happen again until we want to look at it again. Do we really want to look at this again? That's all I have to say.

Craig Hempenius/ I live here in Iowa City. I'd like to address the idea of the use of excessive force by the Iowa City Police Department just in general. I think we can all agree that what happened in this particular case was a use of excessive force but I'd like to remind everyone here that there was no burglar. And innocent unarmed man was shot by an Iowa City policeman. Even if the man would've been a burglar unarmed the police cannot walk in and shoot people like what happened here. The excessive force, misuse of excessive force cannot be tolerated on any occasion whether they're killing innocent civilians, criminals, or anyone. And I think again people have said tonight before me, this is not an isolated incident. This is a symptom of mismanagement of the police officers in this town. Who is responsible for that? Chief Winklehake. I think he should either be fired or he should resign.

Patricia Vanrollins/ 241 Lexington. A concerned citizen of Iowa City, I'm a business woman here in the community. Just a quick question, a suggestion, and then I guess a suggestion and then a question. The suggestion would be, I understand there were a lot of burglaries down in the Gilbert Street area, and I would hope in the future if there is and area of town where we are experiencing a lot of burglaries as people come and go, that at least there could be something in the Press Citizen or some way those business owners should know so that they could be cautious. I think that if people did know that there were some problems in their particular area and the police would be patrolling, they might be inclined to call the Police Department just to say, gosh I'm going to be sending people over or we come and go which would be a little bit cautious. That seems to me to be sensible. That's the question. And that's the suggestion. And then the question Karen I think that I read that you had suggested some kind of an independent review and I must admit that I don't know what exactly would be involved with an independent citizens' review or review of some kind of independent review of what has gone on. And I guess I would just like to say what is the problem with this? I understand that no one else on the council seemed to think this was a good idea or the matter was dropped, I guess is my interpretation of what I read in the Press-Citizen. I don't know whether a citizens' review would be problematic but I just wonder so what's the problem with having an independent review? That's it. Thanks for your time.

Tim Walker/ I'm a 13 year resident of Iowa City and lead a pretty straight and narrow life here. As I was walking home today up Linn Street, I saw two squad cars and their occupants were handcuffing a man. I have no idea why. But my first response to this was fear. I walked past I did not make eye contact with the officers. That is my response. I fear them now despite my straight and narrow life and you should just know that that's the way such a person feels and this is that way I'll continue to feel until I can see the results of a civilian investigation of this senseless death and of this department. Thank you.

Devine Axton/ I'm an activist and I work for Heartland Candles. I'm also disabled and I'm one disabled gal who'd like to some justice. In 1991 I had my car keys in my hand and I was headed to my car. When I went to jail I didn't get in trouble for anything else including not intoxication. I got disorderly conduct. Well, I was taking 5 mg of Colgaurd heart medication. I'm a heart patient. Although the two gals that decided to attack me when I was headed to my car. I was turned around. I was maced. I was held down. One girl beat the hell out of me while the other one ripped my clothes off and not just my top including my sister's top. And I ended up with a concussion. I ended up with my ear out to here, a bruise from here to here. I still have scars on my knees and my legs. My heart medication was increased the next day by 35 mg and I was almost killed d.t. I was the victim and I was the one that's taken the chill. I was able to work full time before. My heart medication got increased by 35 mg. That 35 mg should never have been increased and if the police had been there and got there in time, I would never of had any increasement of my heart medication. I wouldn't have ever been a victim. They would've been there to help me. They would've been there to help me but they weren't there to help me. When they showed up, I pointed out the girls that assaulted me. They let her get away. He did not go after her. There was Hawkeye basketball players down there. I was very angry at everybody down there. I not only had mace when the officer put the cuffs on me, I had mace running down my face. I couldn't see what I was doing and I had a concussion. I had blood running everywhere. And when I'm starting to see is about four months ago, my son was in a bar drinking under age and he got stopped. He got cuffed. He ran with the cuffs and when he ran with the cuffs, when they found him, [officer name deleted] beat him up and prior to this same month he had got assaulted by another young man by the name of Rob, ended up with a neck brace and concussion. Well he ended up with another concussion from [officer name deleted]. He ended up with the bruise on his head. He ended up with his shoulder swollen and he ended up with the marks on his hands from cuffs. And what I'm seeing is I'm seeing a lot of juveniles getting assaulted and being beat up. I'm seeing a lot of citizens getting assaulted and being beat up. And they're here to protect us and here to help us. They're not here to beat up teenagers, to beat up juveniles, and to hurt people. And they're certainly not here to shoot people. They've got those stun guns. They've got billy clubs. They've got guns. And this is not like Cedar Rapids where they go around shooting people on the streets. Iowa City's a much quieter nicer town. I'm here to give my apologies and sorrow to the Shaw family. The one reason I'm speaking is because I'm foreseeing a teenager's going to get beat up. He's going to end up dead. My son almost could've ended dead, real close to dead and I would've felt just like Shaw's family. I almost ended up dead myself and I was the victim. That's why I'm here and that's why I'm speaking. What I'm seeing is that they do a lot of things that are right. Well I'd like to see everybody start to fight for all the things they're doing wrong.

Greg Thompson/ Hi councilmembers. Other people have mentioned this so I won't belabor it but the citizen review is mandatory. We've got to have it.

Nov/ Would you say your name please?

Thompson/ I'm sorry. Greg Thompson. I've lived here since 1972. The citizen review please. We need it as you can hear from these stories tonight. A second point, please don't let this Gillaspie on the streets as a police officer ever again. I left my job at noon today and went up to City Park and I saw Eric Shaw's parents. I gave them both a hug and told them I would pray for them and said I'm so sorry. I'm so ashamed of what a police officer has done in the name of the city I love. You can't bring Eric Shaw back to life. His parents are hurting so bad. You can do one thing to decrease their pain. If they file a lawsuit, a civil lawsuit, don't fight that lawsuit. Give them whatever they ask for. They deserve it. Thank you.

Doyle Adams/ Des Moines. I was finally was lucky enough to get me a place to live over in Coralville. I must say sometimes the behaviorists are put at the bottom of the rung and they don't always have the last say I these kind of matters, how people behave, whether they're police officers or not. But I've been told by a lot of professionals that when you get a group of people is a circle for counseling, that they all seem to get an idea of everyone else's problems but their own. And they seem to get to be professionals almost on everybody else but their own, but theirself. And so they have to go get a counselor or psychiatrist or somebody to kind of guide the group and try to make this circle productive entity. My friends this doesn't stop just with the mentally ill and the drug people. This is true with institutions. I've set through universities where the professors couldn't take a question. About a third of them, the first question during-

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Adams/ That is this lack of training. That is the lack of their ability to handle knowledge. And they are in our universities. I have sit in churches where, and I will get to the Police Department in a minute. I have been in churches where preachers have never been trained to take gossip and they are nice people until they hear some it and then they turn to be inhuman and they loose their composure and they can't take any kind of gossip of criticism. Lack of training. I have read the president's wife, Hillary Clinton's book, The Village on the Hill. She touches on a a little bit of it but she don't tear about the institutions that she is talking about that is suppose to be so perfect. Sure, she drug her daughter around with all of the money she could have and got all the top notch everything for her and she is successful because she is probably exceptionally bright. But see, not all of us are exceptionally bright. And I am proud to say that I am objective as I can be and I do have a degree from Drake University and that is a long story but it was hard for me to get it because I told some of them what I thought of them and I let them have it and I still got my degree from Drake University in social science. But the city on the hill, the village that she talks about will never be until people start getting their training straightened out. A cop, the first thing he should be trained to do is take emotional situations. If he wants to carry the stick or the baton, he don't how- he thinks it is just to twirl or if he wants to call it a night stick and he thinks it is nothing but to goose somebody with, he needs retraining. If he is emotional, so emotional and has to do with why he wants to be a policeman, there should be some test or some counseling, some kind of training, before he ever becomes a policeman beside just how to carry a gun and a night stick and he don't have it. A lot of them don't get it. That is the problem with our village that she is talking about and she is too political and too caught in the middle to tell the truth. I think she is smart enough and she don't have the right degree with is a behavioral degree. I don't think. Same with this Police Department. I don't have to look any further. I come into this town tonight. I come in here before. And I have been through a lot of institutions. I even have a CDL. The A student, paper and pencil, I come into the CDL program that had driven caterpillars and everything else because he made an A. All the tests, written test and he had had this big equipment experience, got by with everything. This halo affect just don't happen in our institutions and our Police Departments. And he left the gear grinder, the A person, the gear grinder of the truck driving school. I could shift better than that when I was 12 back out on the farm because he was bright and they just keep adding this bright person. This perfect policeman. There is no one perfect. when you hear that there is a perfect somebody, you better look out and I tell you folks, you better do some investigation because Mr. Clinton says he is going to add a bunch, 200,000 or more. When he adds 200,000 or more and even if they are well trained like I have reminded them several times to do, they are going to do just like the old rookie, not the new greenhorn, like the old policemen are doing. If you don't straighten it out now, you are going to have some problems later that are real bad ones.

Thomas Hadash/ I have been a resident of Iowa City off and on since 1960. You know, I think it is easy to condemn the entire Police Department. I don't think all police officers are bad. I think the majority probably do their job in a reasonable way. Okay, I think what the issue here is oversight. Now certainly they have to have discretionary powers in exercising their duties and I don't think a reasonable person argues that point. However, there has to be oversight. Okay and to that end I think to this point the oversight has been oversighted as it were. I mean it is endemic and I think it extends beyond the chief of police's office. I think the council members, with all due respect, your acquiescence, your saying it is okay. I think it extends to the county attorney's office for whom, you know, some of the renegades, I don't know if they see their role as- Let me back up. What I guess I am saying here is that there has to be some way to reel in these renegade cops. Now everybody, I mean, you can talk to people throughout the community and everybody has a story or two with confrontations with the police. I could name a couple of who were perfectly willing to proof to themselves for prior convictions in a simple misdemeanor case. I guess what I am asking you to do, like everyone else here has done, is to establish a civilian review committee because they cannot be left to their own devices. I mean you can apply whatever- Let me put it this way, civilian review now is what we really need. Thank you very much.

Tracy Palmer/ I am a resident of Iowa City. I have been there for a year. I have a problem, okay, Police Department. I came to Iowa City thinking this is the greatest town on earth. It is not. I have a daughter, it is a year old. I am suppose to basically have the justice system and the court system and everything else. I can't because I have a daughter that is a year old. I won't see her ever again because they took her away from me. That is beside the point, sorry. But she- What happens when she becomes 18 or 16. You have got a cop that wants to look the- I mean, look directions and point and shoot. Excuse me for my French but point trigger happy cops and point and shoot. I am scared. I am worried because I am out there on the street trying to protect my kid and I can't because there are cops out there, too. I have a problem with the (inaudible) system. I am sorry. I am angry but that is how I feel. And if we allow this outside- I mean, Iowa City allows this continuing, what happens in Des Moines. I am from Des Moines. What happens in there. It is going to happen, the same thing in Des Moines, Iowa City, whatever. And you allowed this to happen and to continue to happen. What is it going to happen. It can continues, it can continue and I was a citizen. Iowa City. I got- I didn't get arrested. They thought I was going to kill myself so they took me to University. They handcuffed me. Now that is wrong. You know, I didn't do anything wrong because I was angry at this woman that took my child away. They handcuffed me. They thought I was dangerous. They were going to take me to the University. That is wrong. They should no handcuffs. They should legally drop the gun law period. That is all I am going to say.

Pat Ledemer/ You haven't heard from my age group very much. 41 or 42 years as a resident. I was married here. I gave birth to four children. They all went to school here. All but one have gone to the University and graduated and I have. I am proud of this town. I tell everybody we don't have crime, we don't have slums, we don't have ghettos, we have great schools. About two years ago on an Easter Sunday I had been hearing stories from friends of mine about simple harassment for no reason and I said no because every time I have ever asked a policeman to do anything to help me, they have done it. They have helped me when I have locked my keys in the cars. I am not proud of that but I did it. They have helped me when I have locked the door I couldn't get into and they have helped me when some people were harassing me by the telephone. But two years ago on Easter Sunday I was just recovering from an operation and I was driving my car and I was stopped because I wasn't wearing a seat belt. That's right, I wasn't. It was in the middle of town. The officer involved insisted that I take a breath test. I never have- I was alone with a cat. I have never had anything like this. It didn't hurt me. Of course I passed it but I was humiliated and ruined a perfectly good day and- I am sorry, I should be more in control. But my major point is this is a great city. It always has been except that maybe some elements are out of control and if they are, we as citizens, need to make sure that that gets under control and I thank you.

Earle Baugh, Jr./ I am from Waterloo, Iowa. I now live above the Dodge Cleaners location, First and Gilbert. I had an incident that happened to me two days prior to the Shaw incident. I think, if I might have spoke up the night, the morning it happened, it happened 5:00 AM that say it happened, that maybe it would have changed their alarm tactics or open door policies before they enter an unsecured building. But as the weeks have gone by, I don't think there is going to be any change in their tactics on entering unsecured buildings. Now my incident, I live above the cleaners. I was awakened by an alarm which they set off but at the time I didn't realize that. I was just awakened by an alarm. I come down stairs not looking like a burglar, no shoes, no socks, no shirt, keys, say hey, I am here to reset this alarm. Well, as soon as she seen me she pulled a gun out on me which could happen, you know. But when I said who I was I thought at least put your hands in your hair, spread your legs, okay, apart, identify yourself and then we can move on. But at that time it wasn't good enough. I had to then get my hands and knees on the ground. Okay, we can do that. I am still here to reset the alarm. Okay. Shut up. Put your face on the concrete. Well, that is a different situation. But later I realized that two officers entered the building that was unsecured, set off the alarm which put her in a situation. Two days later, door is open, they bust in on him and they shoot him. It is just the same situation. If they would have called for their backup which is fine, secured the building, called the owner, called the manager, I would have decoded the alarm, turned on the lights. They could have entered the building, checked it, if everything was fine, it would have been fine. If it wasn't fine, it wasn't fine. But it appeared- I got flushed out of the building beings they entered the building. Now, I have answered alarms for 15 years in Waterloo, Cedar Rapids, I am a roaming dry cleaner. I go where I am needed and I have answered alarms and those officers used those types of procedures. You never enter a building you don't know what you are going to run into. What had happened, he entered a building, no alarm went off. Okay, well, he thought- Maybe he thought there was no alarm on the way walking to the door the alarm went off. They couldn't hear nothing, they couldn't hear the radios to tell the other officer and he couldn't hear anything. She was left on her own, you know, and ran into- I run into her and she was put in a situation where she could have just panicked and pull a trigger on me. This is what I thought he was a burglar. And it just seems like I could have got the bullet quicker than the Shaw situation. So, it is just a scary situation if they are not looking into changing their burglary alarm tactics.

Carletha Baugh/ I am also the manager and wife of Earl Baugh. I was there that morning and it was frightening. I was afraid. I went home early that weekend because I thought maybe if I went home, back to Waterloo, of course I am from Waterloo, too, that maybe I could forget about it but only to read what happened to the Shaw boy and that really hurt me and I am afraid to live up there alone and I talked to the officers last night. They gave me some things I could do, maybe, if ands. But I am still not secure with that and I was told maybe if we hollered out of the window if another burglar alarm happens. I am not going down those stairs and I won't be hollering out the window. So I hope that we can change policies. I do have concerns for that and I would like to become a citizen of Iowa City but if you don't, I am afraid I might have to leave for that reason. Thank you.

E. Baugh/ I would like to add that at the time the officers came out of the building and met with the other officer, me laying on the ground, they asked me to go ahead and get up, ask for my ID and I thought saying that I had the key to decode the alarm would have been proper ID, okay. But he asked me to go upstairs to get my ID, because I don't sleep with my ID. He follows me upstairs, I get my ID, which proved nothing, just proved I was a person. I could have anybody's ID. It didn't mean anything in other words. When we came back downstairs, that is when I got mad. The officers that were at the scene were gone because I wanted to let them know, hey, I am who I am. You are who you are, nice meeting. I don't want to meet like this again. Okay. Well, at that time I just went inside, hurried up and reset the alarm. Left, didn't say bye, nothing, when up there and went to bed. I couldn't sleep. Five minutes later I come back downstairs, all the lights to the store are on, the doors are open, It is one of my employees opening at 5:30. It is just- Officers need to get to know the people. Like the guy said, they need to check the license plates. I have two Cadillacs parked there. They need to case out their surroundings before they just misjudge the situations like they have been.

Kubby/ Did anyone ever apologize to you from the Police Department?

E. Baugh/ The officer that entered and said he set off the alarm said he was sorry. I guess, not being from Iowa City, I just thought it was normal procedures for them to pull out guns on people they didn't know. I don't know. And I have never had it happen to me before so I didn't even really know how to respond. I do have two Rotweiller dogs that I thought of bringing one with me. I mean, I just could have put myself in the situation where I wouldn't be here.

Kubby/ Thank you for coming down tonight.

Tom Lewis/ I am a member of the International Socialist Organization. I have also lived in Iowa City now for 18 years. I grieve very deeply with the Shaw family. I do so because I sympathize with them and I do so because I am very frightened at the prospect of raising my own two sons in a town where the police can conduct themselves in the manner that this police force has conducted itself over the past couple of years. This is a very horrifying case but it is not a complex case. There are simple realities that define it. The first reality is that an innocent unarmed unthreatening man was killed on the premises of a property that he had every right to be on. He was killed very quickly after officers arrived on the scene. That is reality #1. Reality #2 is that chief of police, R.J. Winklehake came out in the newspaper yesterday saying that as far as he knew, to this point, his officers had done the right thing. This is the man who is in charge of the department that is suppose to investigate itself. This is a department that as many speakers before me have pointed out, has a documented record of hotrodding on Kimball Road, other reckless behavior, use of excessive force, racism and now shooting as the continuation, the tragic continuation of a pattern of problems. The third reality is that you are out of touch with where the community is on this. I don't know whether because you were advised or whether it was because your own instincts. But when this happened, you first thought of money. You thought of protecting the city, you thought of protecting yourselves from lawsuits. You should have called a special meeting on this immediately. You still should convey official condolences in person to the Shaw family. There is a great deal of anger and concern. This is not frivolous anger and concern. This is anger and concern that is born from a genuine desire to live in a place where we can feel safe. Not just from the Mafia but from the police. I want to conclude by just saying that there was one local media pundit in today's DI who made the ridiculous statement that there was only one problem with civilian review boards and that problem was civilians. Now, my friends, we do not live in a police state. We live in a society in which in theory anyway civilians are suppose to oversee the armed apparatuses of the community and the idea or the suggestion that a civilian review board is incapable for whatever reason of making sounds judgments in this instance is simply an attempt in and of itself to cover up what has happened and to block this community from coming to an understanding of why and understanding where to go from here. Thank you for your time.

Ann Silander/ I have lived in Iowa City for about 24 years. I am really heart broken to have to be hear tonight for the reasons that we are speaking about. I have to say I have been amazed over the years when I have read about instance in the paper involving the Iowa City police. Amazed at the conduct of the Iowa City Police Department. I work at the hospital. I work at a job in which it is sometimes necessary for me to restrain patients or to help restrain people who are very violent to keep them from hurting themselves or from hurting other people and I know that that can be done without mace or batons or guns and it can be done without hurting people. And there are many of us employees at the hospital who know how to do that. Maybe we could share some of that information with the Iowa City Police Department. Maybe they should not have guns because if they did not have guns they would use their wits, they would use their creativity as I am sure they do at times and they would push themselves. I would like to reiterate what a couple of other people have said. I would ask you, councilmen and women, somebody from the city, please go talk with the Shaws. Talk with them about what happened. Tell them that you share their grief. Listen to what they have to say. Secondly, I would ask you, council people, what is the problem with a civilian review board. The police are suppose to be here to serve and protect the people. And the people, at this point, are grieved at the death of Eric Shaw. We are afraid and we are angry and we want to be a part of the system. We want to be a part of- You can help to stop the adversarial relationship that has been created by giving us a voice, by going ahead and creating a civilian review board. We are all a part of this community. Thank you.

Howard Weinberg/ I have lived in Iowa City on and off since 1967. I got all my degrees here. I practice clinical psychology. I have an office d.t. in the Paul Helen Building just off the ped mall. I didn't know Eric Shaw but I know that I am implicated in his death. I implicated myself in his death when I participated in the elections that brought you to the seats that you now occupy. I am implicated in his death because I love Iowa City so much that I have returned here three times to live and this is where I expect to live I hope a while longer. You are implicated in his death because it is your responsibility to oversee the people who carry out the purposes of this city and if there is an investigation by a civilian board or by a police board or by some other board and that investigation includes that Eric Shaw's was a necessary death or a death in which no fault was involved, then you must conclude that it is part of your job to encompass such events. This is a very serious responsibility and I should think you should want the help of all of us in burying him. That is one thing I would like to say. The other thing I would like to say is that since I moved back to Iowa City in 1989 I have had only a couple of encounters with the police. They keep noticing when I don't put my sticker on my license plate and I have hadn't any trouble with them. They have been really polite to me. And I suspect that they are pretty polite and nice to most people that look like me. But I do have that office d.t. that I mentioned and I sit in the ped mall and I watch the police with the other people in the ped mall. I watch how alienated they appear, the police that is. And I watch them take teenagers away in handcuffs for skateboarding. I watch them take people off of bicycles, knock them off of bicycles and take them away- I grew up in New York City. My wife grew up in San Francisco. We are not strangers to police violence. We are not strangers to civilian review boards. We are not strangers to these whole issues. Part of the reason I love Iowa City is because this is the first place that I ever was that I experienced community and I treasure that more than I can tell you and it hurts me more than I can tell you to see this issue dividing this community and see people wearing uniforms who apparently are afraid of members of this community or possibly whole segments of this community. One more thing I want to share with you. I didn't always look this way. I use to have lots of hair and police looked at me in a scary fashion. In fact, they took me to jail twice during the Vietnam era and I have to tell you they were very professional, the Iowa City police in those days. I never could have imagined in a million years that I would be standing here today telling you how good the police were then. But by comparison, they were exceedingly good and something very wrong is happening in this town, this wonderful town which makes us smug because we get to live here. There is something bad going on and I think we all need to get together and fix it. Thanks.

Keith Dempster/ In the 35 years I have run the Mill restaurant and the 40 some years I have been in this area, I have not before found it necessary nor did I have the nerve to come and approach the city council. I, being a licensee, and working late at night and being in the d.t. area, one would hate to have the local constabulary annoyed. You might find that it brought on more problems. At the moment my anger and disgust overrides my own fear of this kind of sticking my head up. when I came to this community in 1956 we had a locally oriented community based law enforcement. We have in the last five years seen evidence that those judicious officers who tended not to beat or shoot first, become demoted or retire. We find that when new police officers are hired, they tend to be young, aggressive, malleable, apparently scared, and amazingly arrogant and the a problem that we have- The problem that we have is certainly not a lack of training. The problem we have is that these troops have been trained to be an occupying force among the civilians of Iowa City. I have lived in Franco, Spain. I worked on the ronbulus in d.t. Barcelona in a place for ten months in Franco, Spain. I trusted the guardia civia better. I have spent time in Latin America, a lot of time. At least you know where you are coming from there. And the only thought I would like to leave with you is this happened on your watch. And this has happened on the watch of those people who have been here on this council the last 3-4-5-6 years who are minding how we kill our crabgrass but not minding the store.

Jeff Chello/ I have lived in Iowa City since 1984 and I am not here to judge the Police Department or anything like that. But what I am here to do is to remind you that I didn't vote for the police chief to run this city. I didn't vote for Steve to run the city. I didn't vote for the city attorney to run the city. I voted for you to run the city. I put my trust in you to take care of business and I hope that when this is all over and believe me it is going to be all over someday. Some day it is just going to be something that people talk about. but I hope when that time comes, you can come to me and say I took responsibility for it and that hopefully I did what you elected me to do and that is where my trust is. My trust right now is in you and I hope that we can depend on you and not have to depend on unelected officials to run our city. Thank you.

Royce Nelson/ I think I have spoken to about three of you council people the last few days. Previous to the last election I talked to a couple of you as candidates. My sympathy goes to the family. I think I have lived in this town for better than 40 years. What I have seen happening in the last few years in a Police Department, all I can say is I am ashamed to be a citizen of Iowa City. They treat people as if they are dirt. They have no respect for them. They don't talk to them. They tell them. They don't ask. They tell them. You do this, you do that. We, the citizens, make up this city. We, in turn, elect you people, to represent us. I think it is time you people listen to the citizens of this city and do some of the things that is being suggested like the citizens review, complete committee, made up of all factions of people in the city, not only professions, working people, low income people and the like to get what- to find out really what is out. The police don't know the people of this city. I live on Taylor Drive. I have yet to see a policeman on a bicycle which they are suppose to be doing. I see the patrol cars driving past all of the time. Nobody talks to the kids out on the street. It is all fear. You don't even want to see a cop. I can't drive anymore for medical reasons. When people take me some place, so often I hear there is a cop up there, there is a cop back there. What does that tell you, it is fear. It shouldn't be fear. It should be welcome to see you. You have asked that the citizens of this city to be patient in the approach that is taken by you people in this affair. It appears that the city is taken the approach to prepare themselves to defend themselves against something they don't have the slightest ideas what is going to happen and they are the ones jumping the gun, we aren't. There are things that can be done immediately to start healing. It is a pathetic state of affairs when this shooting is kind of like what broke the camels back because it has been a history for a long time of over aggressiveness by this Police Department, by non-contact with the common public. There is a lot of things that can be done to start healing those wounds. One thing is to have like a local town hall meeting so that people can air their grievances. Another things is there is a lot of neighborhood associations. Have them organize the people in those associations or ask them to do it and have either some councilman and Iowa City police there to answer questions within their own neighborhoods. These are things you can do now, not three weeks from now when you get a DCI report so you can defend yourself. That is all I have to say. Thank you.

Andrew Wicklander/ I will make this quick. I know I was up here before but people have come up to you talking about a civilian review the entire night. There is no reason that there should not be a civilian review. If the police felt that they did nothing wrong and they felt that a review would find that, they would want that to happen so civilians would have more trust in what they were doing because we obviously would feel more comfortable if a civilian review found that there was nothing wrong with what the police officers did then if the police officers found there was nothing wrong with what they did and if you do not get a civilian review to look at this and you allow the police officers to do this, if this happens again, you guys sitting up there are the murderers.

Thornberry/ You are wrong.

Wicklander/ No. If you guys do not allow a civilian review to happen and a police review finds Mr. Gillaspie, that he did nothing wrong, you guys are two hands on a gun and all the police officer is is a weapon. He is the gun and you sitting there are the murderers because right now you have the power to say we are going to appoint a civilian review. There is absolutely no reason not to have one. There is no reason at all. You should want one because it is-

Nov/ Is there something else you would like to say? We did hear you say this.

Wicklander/ Okay, yeah. It is your duty to do what citizens want it is clear what we want. So, do it.

Lynne Tylee/ I have been living here for three years. My partner has been here for four. I found this very nerve racking, both because of what happened and also the personal aspect. I don't want to be emotional but I am not sure that I can avoid that. So I will try to pull it in and do the best I can. I almost didn't come. I was actually sitting at home watching it on t.v. and I had forgotten about it and my partner- I am here on behalf of my partner as well as myself as a citizen of Iowa City. My partner is Faye Cooper and four years ago she was involved in an incident of brutality and made a complaint to the chief and she asked to come and speak on her behalf.. So I am doing that and I am also speaking as a professional in the community show has been involved with, on some different levels, with the police and the courts and I just want to say first that I am supporting the idea of a private citizens groups investigating this with no connection to the political machine of Iowa City. And I think that is very important. I will say it for this reason. I have worked in this county and surrounding counties in the court system and with the police. I have also done that in the State of New York and the State of Maryland. And while there are many good things that go on there, I also know that there is something that use to be called the good old boy network and I can say now that it is also a good old boy and a good old girls' network. And the fact is is that these people work together and consciously or subconsciously they protect one and another. And I have seen it happen and I have seen other people get hurt because of it, meaning private citizens. Other bad decisions to be made. So in that one I think it is very important that do this and that we are very careful about who we select to do it. Now I would like to just share my personal experience. Four years ago, a few months after my partner moved here, I got a phone call and she was very distressed and she had just been pulled over by [officer name deleted] and it was a very cold snowy night in January, the roads were covered, she had not been here that long. She pulled up to the intersection of Gilbert and I believe it is 6 or 1. I can never remember. But it is where the new HyVee is being built. And there is a left hand turn lane there in addition to a go forward lane, straight ahead, and a right turn or straight ahead. She was, unbenounced to her, in the left hand turn lane wanting to go straight ahead. She suddenly realized it when she got a green arrow and someone behind her began beeping their horn for her to get out of their way. She put her right hand turn signal on, checked the traffic, there was no one coming, moved to the right hand land and proceeded to get out of that person's way and wait for her light to turn green which was still red. Suddenly lights came on. It happened to be [officer name deleted]. He got out of his car, asked for her license, she said what did I do wrong. He immediately became aggressive. Don't ask questions, give my your license and your registration. She had never been pulled over, she is in her 30's. She had never been pulled over for a traffic violation. Has never gotten a ticket. She said did I do anything wrong. He responded the way that he did. She gets out her license. He immediately began to get an attitude with her of which she became rather confused and she said to the officer, officer I don't understand what did I do wrong. He said just wait here, I will be right back. He goes to his car, essentially he writes up a ticket for being in the left hand lane illegally. He tells her to sign the ticket. She starts to read the ticket. You know, you have signed the back. She has never had a ticket. She wants to-

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He starts to curse at her and yell at her. She starts to get upset and say officer, I have never had a ticket, I want to read what I am signing, I never sign any document without reading it. He begins again to curse. He goes all right ma'am, now you have a second ticket. He said I can write you up for a third ticket if you don't back off. She started to cry. She reached for some tissues behind her between her two bucket seats and he reached for his gun, continued to get aggressive with her, curse at her. Do you know that in Iowa if you get three ticket you lose your license automatically ma'am. Now he said sign the ticket. Needless to say she did. She was frightened. She immediately- She asked what she should do. He said proceed. She wasn't even sure whether she was in the right lane and should. But at this point she was so frightened by this man. She did proceed. He followed her. He put her spotlight on her. She thought she was doing something wrong. She pulled over. He stood there with his spotlight flashing at her. She didn't know what to do. He then pulled around her and then he took off. And she sat there upset. She then decided she knew a friend that worked at the Police Department and she knew that she was working. She went directly to the Police Department and her friend advised her to talk to the chief. She talked to the chief, wrote a letter formally making a complaint about [officer name deleted]. Her initial response from the chief was fine. Let's have a meeting between the three of us which frightened her but her assured her that it would be okay. She went in the next day and had a meeting. During that meeting [officer name deleted] was very very smug. He admitted no wrongdoing and he said that the only reason- First he tried to blame her, that she kind of got him to back off. He said that he had not remembered putting his long johns on that night and he was cold and he was just in a bad mood. He, however, did not want to apologize. He did not feel that he did anything wrong and he was still trying to blame her. At that point she basically, still frightened about the repercussions if she stood up to this man, ask him to leave and spoke with the chief and the chief- talked to the chief that she was not satisfied. He said what do you want. She said I would like an apology. She then got, if you will pardon the expression, a half assed apology from [officer name deleted] with a very smug look on his face and the chief said are you satisfied with an also smug look on his face and at that point she felt pretty powerless and accepted it. From that point whenever we drove around in Iowa City in that area, whether I was driving or she was driving in the evening, which is when this happened, she would say be careful, this is his area. She was worried about retribution. She was frightened for her safety. This is not an overemotional and reactive person. I mean, normally she is like stoic. So I knew that he had really frightened her and frankly I was a little bit concerned about coming here because after this incident and others that I have been reading about. I was a little bit concerned about that myself. But I decided this was too important. I mean, there is a man that is dead. And I do express my condolences to the family and it is very obvious when I read the chief of police response, that he thought that 1- up until now everything he had heard was proper. But then 2- he also said in today's paper that he really didn't talk to them about what had happened. I don't know how he is responding when he said in the Press Citizen today that he really did not talk to his officers about what happened that day. To me, that is troubling. How can you respond that your officers did the right thing when you haven't talked to your officers about what they did and lastly, I would like to say this. In my professional experience and my personal experience in town the last three years with the Iowa City police, I have had some very good experiences. I have also seen a number of officers who I can name but will not who do treat the kids d.t. well. I work with teenagers in town. And I watch them. I have a business on the ped mall. I am invested in how these kids are being treated by the police and I have seen some of the same things that some of these other people have talked about, the negative behavior. I have also seen some good behavior. I am not here to condemn the Iowa City police. There are certain officers that I am concerned about. I am more concerned about the chief of police and how he is handling this. I believe that his officer's behavior may be partly because of the way he has chosen thus far to respond to these instances. Thank you.

Don Freiman/ I have been a resident of this area for the last 29 years off and on. And for the second time, I find that I am grieving for an innocent victim where as a result of a patrolman behavior. 20 years ago an Iowa City patrolman passed a pistol to a convicted felon so that he might be caught in the act of pulling an armed robbery. Rather than pull an armed robbery, the man shot somebody, killed a woman, mother of two children. The AFT ruled that this was a internal matter and the Police Department swept it under the rug, so to speak. The matter of fact, the citizens of Iowa City bore the expense of this patrolman's legal expenses. Now we have another incident and we have an investigation, an internal investigation, where one of the officers was involved in the Earl Baugh incident two nights before. I don't understand how this man could be appointed. Isn't there a conflict of interest there. How can we respect his judgement. We also have an investigator hired by the city attorney. This investigator is associated with the patrolman who was involved in this incident 20 years ago. How can we trust this investigation? Isn't there a conflict of interest there? If you want to clean up these problems, you are going to have to do something besides hire people that have an ax to grind. Thank you.

Caroline Dieterle/ I am here not just because I am a citizen who cares about Iowa City, who has lived here since 1968 but because my two oldest children were friends from childhood with Eric. I have watched the city over the years and I have a healthy respect for the bureaucracy that is Iowa City government. It is able to swallow a great deal with hardly a trace. But this bureaucracy I do not believe can grind up and swallow a situation this serious. It's true that many of the people who are stopped by the Iowa City police are not faultless. When I was talking to my children this incident I made the remark that at least they were able to apprehend people for public intoxication efficiently. I found out from them that they have friends who have been apprehended because they had too much to drink but were not being violent and were treated violently by the police. These people are not going to respect the police and they are not going to ask the police for help when there is a truly dangerous situation either because they won't trust them. This is a very bad situation for the city and very bad when we are trying to control juvenile behavior generally. My kids are too old, I think, to be involved with this but they are not that much too old. Within the last few years they were younger. The third thing is that Caesar's wife has got to be above reproach and that is true of the Police Department here as well because anybody who reads the papers and listens to the news knows that in many cities across the United States there are instances of police corruption and police mistreatment of people. Why are we so egotistical to think that this can't happen here. It can and it will if we are not careful about it. We don't want this to be a Los Angeles or anywhere even near that. But it will be that as it gets bigger if we don't care and we don't watch what is going on and I also want to ask you to appoint a civilian review board. You cannot have an investigation into an incident this serious done in house and have the citizen's respect the results and believe them. And you need the credibility because if you don't have the credibility, I can almost promise you that we are going to have a new council because- Over the years I have watched both the county government and the city government and have been involved, you know, in one way or another several times in election campaigns, I served on the Airport Commission, things like that. I worked in the county government. And it has been my experience that citizen boards are really very good. That the people who volunteer and want to be on those boards do so because they have a real interest, because they want to serve their communities and because they don't mind serving and giving their time for nothing. The fact that they serve for nothing gives them more credibility than people who are paid. I know that the council doesn't make much money and I am sure that is not why you run for office to make money. But, you know, the people who work for the city government in the other offices beneath you, the city manager, the city attorney, the Police Department. They are all having their salaries paid by the city and so they have vested interest and not necessarily having the same even handed approach that an unpaid civilian does and I don't see why if civilians can be trusted to do a good job on the Human Rts. Commission, on the Airport Commission, on any of the other boards and commission that people volunteer for, that they can't be trusted to do an even handed and good job with a police review board. Other towns have them. They make it work. I don't see why we can't, too. And finally, I would like to say that when I went to the visitation, I noticed that on the table there, there was a statement by Eric himself about what he wanted his art to mean and he wanted his art to demonstrate to people how violent our society had become. And in a sense he died for what he wanted to do. And I think we should respect that by taking some kind of action and finally I would like to say that my daughter wrote the letter to the paper that appeared in the DI today and she cannot make people in the Netherlands understand how this kind of thing can happen because this kind of thing doesn't happen over there. Thank you.

Mark Denning/ I am a member of the International Socialist Organization and I would like to say something about the ISO. When we called this demonstration here today, I thought- I knew there was a lot of anger in the community but the turnout today at the demonstration before this council meeting and here in the council meeting right now is really inspiring. A lot of speakers have come up here and said that they are now sort of ashamed to be citizens of Iowa City because of the killing of Eric Shaw and the misconduct of the Iowa City Police Department but I think tonight the amount of people who have come here and had the courage to express their concerns and their experiences with the Police Department makes me proud to be a citizen of this city and I think what we should all remember is this is not- this incident here is not the first. I think all the people who have come up here and talked about their different experiences with the Police Department, either being brutalized or ignored or any of a number of things and a lot of the officers who were mentioned, I remember specifically [officer name deleted] who attacked a bicyclist on the ped mall I think a couple of years ago. I really wasn't surprised that his name came up tonight in an entirely separate incident because a lot of these names are pretty familiar to a lot of people and I would like to ask the council here to really take seriously the things that the people have been saying tonight because if you are truly representatives of this community, then you should meet their demands because they are more than reasonable. Thank you.

Daryl Woodson/ I have lived in Iowa City for 30 years now and I don't think I have seen this city this much up in arms over any incident. I won't repeat the same sort of things that everybody has said but I did this week speak to several police officers. Several of them said that they were upset at the chief for not appointing an outside investigation because they felt that the perception of an internal police investigation would be that it was not credible. If our aligning officers in our Police Department feel that way, then we have a problem, a double problem. And if you didn't think that there is a need for a permanent citizen police commission in this town, the last two and a half hours or two hours should have convinced you. If everyone who was up here tonight and other people had a commission that they could go to when they had complaints about the Police Department that they felt that they could get a fair hearing and a commission that could regularly review the policies and the procedures of the department, we might be able to stop this sort situation before it gets to this point. Thank you.

Cathy Brenneman/ I was prompted to come down here after sitting at home and watching it. I felt that there is so much being said that is true and is actually felt from the heart. I thought there were two things that were not being expressed. First of all that is a situation that goes far beyond those of us who feel that there has been a major wrong done here that is not being brought to justice. There is also a completely different aspect to this and there are families that are hurting that are actually spouses or significant others of the officers involved. I do not believe that the officers in Iowa City intentionally set out to murder a man. I do believe, however, that that is what ended up happening and regardless of the means meeting the ends, the ends is what we have left to deal with. I guess my big thing that I wanted to express was the fact that safety and safety in our community is linked very closely to honesty and it is all about perception. And if I don't perceive that I am safe and I perceive that I cannot call the Iowa City Police Department to act either on my behalf or on behalf of others, then there is a problem. And with that commitment to safety comes a commitment to honesty. And if I feel, regardless if I feel safe and yet I feel the department is being dishonest, then neither of them will hold up and so, I guess I just wanted to express that as a citizen of Iowa City for many years and a student here that the one thing we need to learn is that reality is about perception and so the council needs to take a lead here and set what will be percieved in the future. Thank you.

Nov/ Is there someone else who would like to speak in this particular issue? On behalf- Is it this issue? Say your name please.

Tye Kirk/ I have been a resident here for three weeks now and the last three weeks I have walked around and I felt such community, such warmth. People I don't know at all and I just couldn't believe how caring and thoughtful every person has been to me and that I look into people's faces and wonder why are they embracing and then a couple of weeks ago I read a newspaper article I think in the DI and it was about the Shaw murder and I can of thought it was kind of a weird thing to happen. That this policeman just walked in the house and killed him. But you know I know that this kind of stuff happens because I have kind of feel a little desensitized by everything and that how much it happens. It still kind of shocked me a little bit that because of just the contradiction of reading this article and then feeling what I felt from the community. And then how I come here and I hear of the past of how this has happened over and over again and I just can't really believe that this has been let go on for so long. You know, this is (can't hear) I can't be desensitized to not feel anything from this. I don't think it is possible to be desensitized enough. I just- I feel from this right today, I feel afraid of the police and its system. I fear that what happened will maybe happen again. I fear that maybe you will be impotent to act on this and try to change it because I feel that if nothing is done that nothing will change and that this will happen again. This will be let to happen again. Thanks.

Nov/ Excuse me. We have someone who has not spoken yet. Would you please wait. Could you wait until someone else who has not spoken yet? Thank you. We really try not to have somebody speak twice if there is till someone who wants to.

Sally Peck/ I am sorry I waited. I almost wasn't going to speak because I feel like I have so much to say. I have lived in this area since the late 60's although I was gone for a period of time. I am a lawyer. I represent persons accused of crimes in this community. What the people have said tonight, the citizens of this community have told you about the way they have been treated by the police in this community should be believable to you. You should pay attention to it. It does happen. What you have heard is probably only the tip of the iceberg. When my daughter, who knew Eric Shaw, called me and told me that he had been killed, I didn't know Eric but I burst into tears and I was in shock. But in a way I wasn't really too awfully surprised because I know from having read what is contained in the records that other people don't get a chance to see from the police reports. I know because I have heard my clients and have an independent investigations reveal the truth of what my client has told me and then this statement of facts which are contained in the reports sometimes. It is frightening. I called up Mr. and Mrs. Shaw. I talked to Blossom Shaw. I had never met her before. The agony that welled up from inside of her was an agony that was unspeakable. Unspeakable. I was a complete stranger to her and she revealed her agony, her deepest agony for a slaying of her son. All of us should feel that same agony for the slaying of a citizen of this community. Mr. and Mrs. J. Shaw, Blossom Shaw, Eric Shaw, and Alissa Shaw are citizens of Iowa City community. We are citizens of the Iowa City community. We and you owe it to the citizens, Mr. and Mrs. Shaw and their family and the rest of us to have a citizen's review, an independent review. You cannot have the fox guarding the chicken house. It must be independent. The perception has got to be- It cannot be a perception that there has been a cover up. Too often when citizens are shot by law enforcement officers, even the DCI comes out with a statement that it was justified. In this instance there was a dangling telephone that prevents that from happening. Now you must take that next step. You must not let the police investigate themselves. You must have an independent investigation of this. Not only of the Eric Shaw slaying but also the police procedures in this community. We need good law enforcement. We can have it. The citizens of this community are good people. For the most part they are law abiding people and they deserve to have decent law enforcement from the department and from you. Thank you.

Duane Rohovit/ Like Ms. Peck, I am someone who has worked in the criminal justice system in this city and now in Cedar Rapids for 22 years as a criminal defense attorney. So I have had a chance to interact with this police force and the one in Cedar Rapids as well and I am concerned about the future, Many people more elegantly than I have summed up their feelings about what occurred to this community. But I am looking for tomorrow and as someone who works in the criminal justice system, understand that there is going to be no criminal justice in this town until the citizens again trust the police force and our task in this city is going to be reconstruct that trust. Law enforcement will tell you that they cannot work without citizens. Citizens solve the majority of crimes, not law enforcement. That may come as a surprise to you but if you have worked in this area, you will know that most evidence, most tips, most aid comes from citizens and if the citizens do not trust their police, the quality of law enforcement in this town is going to suffer. We have to figure our a way to do that and I think that some of things that have been suggested tonight buy the speakers provide excellent means. If Chief Winklehake is so concerned about the morale of his officers, I would suggest that he sign on for a citizens review board because that is the only thing that is going to increase the moral of his officers. If all of us can again communicate with the police, attempt to understand and share information and if we feel like the police in this city work for us, the citizens, not the other way around, we pay their salaries. They work for us. We got to work with them but until trust is redeveloped, we have got a big problem with law enforcement in this town. Thanks.

Lori Dyer/ And I would like to tell these people what happened to my children in January where a suppose to be friend of mine got drunk and he beat up my children and when we told the police it took them ten days to just get to arrest the guy to press charges against him. I had to call the city council and talk to Karen Kubby to get the pressure on them just to arrest the guy and they didn't even press charges against him for assaulting my daughter. They only did it for my son. But they must have some doubt because they made us go to St. Luke's hospital and have some kind of test done thinking that we were the ones that abused my son and I have never been caught. I have never abused my son in my life. Or my daughter. Not in the way he abused them. He abused them really bad and it has affected my son still to this day. He is scared of that man coming to our place.

Audience/ He hits his own daughter.

Dyer/ Yeah. And They didn't charge him for assault for my daughter. Only for my son and all they did was give him, they said they busted him and threw him in jail for one night and he is on some kind of probation where the only time he has to go to probation is if he gets in trouble. And he is walking the streets to this day and he beats his own child all the time. I have got witnesses to it. He beats her like a red headed step child. And he gets away with it and then I read in the paper yesterday that it if that cop passes a psychologist evaluation, that he might be able to go back on duty. And what if he does it to some more people. I mean does he have an itchy trigger finger or what. That guy wasn't holding a gun. He didn't have no right to shoot that guy. I mean, he is getting paid for it, too. That is bull. I don't think he should get paid for it. I think he should have got canned and thrown in the joint. If it was one of us and we shot a cop, we'd be in the joint so quick it would make your head spin. The cop shoots somebody and they can get away with it? That is not fair and I just wanted to tell people that, too. So they can know that if anybody else's child get beat up by somebody that they will probably walking the streets and get away with it. That is all I got to say. Bye.

Devine Axton/ The gal that just spoke. I have seen Bruce on his own daughter. He has beat his own daughter. I think what she is trying to say is we would like to see child molesters and rapists get more time. Steal my cars, steal everything in my home, don't touch me, don't touch my kid. Give molesters and rapists more time. There is an officer in Coralville by the name of [officer name deleted] who stole condoms and baby clothes. He got fired. I have got a good question. Why doesn't this man and why is he getting paid? Thank you very much.

Nov/ There is anyone else who wanted to say something? Yes. Please come forward.

Tom Hadash/ I attended yesterday's press conference I guess and the chief of police said that he didn't know for two days about this incident concerning Mr. Baugh and I find that incredulous. How can a gun be drawn on a citizen in this community. He is made to lie down on the ground and the chief of police does not know it for two days. Who is in charge of this Police Department? Are we covering something up? Why did it take two days for this incident, for the chief of police to become aware of this incident? Can anybody answer that question for me?

Nov/ Is there an answer that is easy to give on this? It is a complicated situation. I want to say on behalf of the city council that these issues are complex and these issues are troublesome. We appreciate the fact that you have come to share your concerns because we have all asked the same questions. We have all received the same non-answer because all the investigations have been pulled out of the hands of the city. However, the only thing that was in the paper was an internal investigation among the police officers. There are also a couple of external investigations on the same procedures and we have not made a decision whether or not to hire a review board and we will think about all of your concerns and we will get back to you.

Kubby/ Naomi, one of the things that Aaron had said earlier was that it seemed like the community wants to be part of the institution. But for me, what I am hearing tonight, is that the institution needs to be part of the community.

Audience/ I would like to ask a question.

Nov/ Please come to the microphone.

Lynne Tylee/ You stated that the city, that the investigation was taken away from the city which I did read in the paper. I am troubled by the fact that the city feels that they have lost control of their own city's investigation and that there must be something that this city can do to get control back. I cannot believe that there isn't something that you could do or the hesitation to do that.

Nov/ No, it is a state investigation.

Tylee/ I am aware of that. I read it in the paper.

Nov/ And the county attorney is in charge receiving the information from the state and it is his decision to release it to us and anyone else and he has not yet made that decision.

Tylee/ I understand. But if the county attorney is making the decision it goes back to and he is waiting on the DCI. It goes back to my concern and other people's concerns that was stated tonight that you are talking about an internal investigation. The DCI is involved with the police. We have had a couple of lawyers, myself who is a psychotherapist that has testified in the courts locally that have told you that that will not work and as the mayor and the city council, we are asking you to take control back.

Nov/ Before we leave the public discussion item, is there someone here who came to talk about another issue?

Kubby/ Naomi, before we go on, in a certain sense I am so overwhelmed by what people had said that it is hard to really think in any logical way. But one of the things my gut tells me to do is that we need to meet a couple of extra times now, the next day, to begin to talk about some of these issues. Just a chance to just feel this for awhile and get together quickly to talk about it to make sure that we understand all the processes that are going on and to quit saying all the things we can't do and begin talking about what we can do and the things that we can't do, we need to explain as clear as we can, even if we feel like we have done it. To say why we can't do it, what are the constraints, what are the time frames and to keep in the clearest communication on a regular basis that we can. Maybe we need to set up a hotline number where people can call in their concerns. I don't know what all the things are but to begin soon to start brainstorming. One of the things that Steve Atkins said at the press conference that really I was so grateful that you said was that we need to begin to rebuild our relationship with the community. And not just the police part but the city council, these seven up here and that we need to begin talking about that in some way and I hope that we can do it soon and not wait for two weeks when we have another scheduled meeting.

Nov/ Well, we could talk about that. But we certainly share all of these concerns and we certainly will talk about it.

Patricia Vanrollins/ Just one more question, if I might. Who advises the city council as to what they can do and what they can't do. Are you being advised as to what you need to do to take control? Do you know where you fit here?

Nov/ This is not something we are prepared to discuss tonight. We are not going to change to discussion at the moment. We are going to do this at another time.

Kubby/ We are being asked to provide some leadership and we need to do it.

Vanrollins/ Yes.

Thornberry/ I am first and foremost a citizen of Iowa City, a businessman. I was born and raised here. This affects me just as much or more than any of you and it bothers me to have to be here and do and say some of the things or not say some of the things as a elected representative of us, of the people of Iowa City. Please bear with me. I don't want a lynch mob and neither do you. We need to get to the bottom of this. We need to get to the bottom of it quickly and we don't want it to happen again. Please let us do our job.

Colleen Finnegan/ I would like to address you, Mr. Thornberry, because I was born here as well as you and neither one of us is affected anymore than any of the other people here in this room. I am just standing before you. I want to be counted. I am your constituency. We are your constituency. All that we are asking is to have the opportunity to find out what went wrong. We don't want to lynch anybody. We are looking for the truth in this situation. It is our right to demand from you the ability to do that.

Nov/ We all agree with you. We all want the truth here. There is no one up here who disagrees with what you have to say.

Helen Schraeder/ I have been a member of the community now for ten years. I guess some of us are still confused. Are you saying that it is not within your power to set up right now, right this minute a citizens review board?

Nov/ It is probably within our power but they would have no information yet on which to act and we prefer to wait and think a little bit longer until we have more information before we act.

Schraeder/ And so you are saying later you might set one up?

Nov/ We are saying we are thinking. That is exactly all we are saying.

Schraeder/ So the power you do have, the power to do it, you are just choosing to wait. Is that correct? That you have the power?

Nov/ We are in a position where the facts are not yet available. The power to set up something that is going to sit there and do nothing until the facts are available is not my choice.

Schraeder/ I have the feeling that if you set one up it wouldn't do nothing. I have a feeling that it would do a great deal right away like tomorrow night.

Nov/

Kubby/ We are being told that there is a certain time frame to the investigation. We all know how slow the wheels of local government can work. If we want a citizens review board to be up and running by the time the facts are in, we need to be begin to speak to decide to do it. That is why I believe that we need to have a meeting tomorrow. I am suppose to visit my 91 year old grandmother in Des Moines. I will forego that trip to stay here to have a special meeting to begin to talk about what does the group think because we have not talked about it. The only time the city council has talked about this is last Wednesday when it was brought up at our vision statement and only two council members had any interest at all in doing it. There was not discussion. So I don't really understand the ability to say we don't think that it is available, that we should do this at this time. That may be your individual opinion but I think we need to talk about that and discuss it. What is the different forms it could take, what different roles could it play, permanently and in the short term for this particular extraordinary incident. Right now.

Nov/ This is not something we are going to discuss and this is not something we are going to decide tonight.

Kubby/ But we could decide to hold a special meeting tomorrow or Thursday or Friday to discuss that and put notice to the public.

Baker/ Naomi, can I say something. I have to agree with you. This is not something we ought to decide tonight. It is something that we ought to discuss tonight but as uncomfortable as it is, you didn't elect us to make those kinds of serious decisions in this kind of environment. I am sorry. You didn't do it that way and if we don't do it, I am inclined to say we ought to do it. But if we don't do it, then you have every right to come down here and demand to know why. But you should not say to us because we won't do it tonight that somehow we are remiss in our responsibilities. We ought to talk about it. Karen is right. We ought to talk about it soon. When you raised that issue at a previous meeting, I think my comment was at that moment I was not interested in making a decision about that because the incident that has provoked this, the primary incident, the facts of which have still not been established. We don't know what those facts are. These other incidents are part of a larger problem that we need to talk about very soon and I think this council is very seriously considering exactly the steps that you are talking about. But I think you want us to take this as seriously as we should and conscientiously as we should and not respond to an emotional moment right now. I will say individually I think we ought to have a civilian review board. That is my inclination right now but I want to see what those other investigations establish as the facts. I think that is fair. I think that is what you can expect from us. Karen wants to talk about meeting soon to discuss this. I am all for that. That is a good idea.

Caroline Dieterle/ I think that I would like to just say that it would be nice if maybe we had some different language to distinguish between investigating this specific incident of the Shaw tragedy and the need for an ongoing civilian review board that will be oversight for the Police Department on an ongoing basis which other communities do have. And I did not see that there is any reason why you can't decide to have such an ongoing review board even telling them that they can't consider what happened with the Shaw tragedy until after you get all of these facts which you are talking about. I can understand that. But I did not understand, you know, if the rest of the week goes by and I hear that the city council has decided that we don't need a civilian review board to keep a steady watch over what happens in law enforcement in the town. Those are two separate issue. What happens with the Shaw case and what we really have needed for a long long time and will probably continue to need if we are going to build any trust anymore. And you know I don't see any reason and I bet a lot of others people don't either why you can't get together sometime this week and set up the mechanism to get a civilian review board that is an ongoing thing, not just for this incident. Thank you.

Norton/ I would like to comment on that. I think it is important to consider if there is two kinds of boards, one that deals with the present situation because establishing a longer term may be different. That is one of the kinds of issues we have to- I think there is general agreement, as I sense it, in some kind of a group of that kind to do not only to review this particular incident and the related ones as Steve alluded to but also possibly to set up something in a standing fashion. But we ought to think about that and I agree with you that we need to do it promptly. We have a heavy agenda but I think we ought to do it as soon as we decently can get together. That would be my view.

Kubby/ How about Friday?

Vanderhoef/ How about tomorrow or next week.

Woito/ How about tomorrow?

Council/ (All talking).

CHANGE TAPE TO REEL 96-104 SIDE 1

Atkins/ Folks, may I comment? The process of citizen review boards, civilian review, they have taken on a number of different names. This evening I have taken, I think, copious notes on what everyone has said to say and very clearly I think Mr. Hadash, if he is still here, started his comments, Tom Hadash, the issue is oversight on the part of the community. We have internally begun some of the work that is being suggested and I have to tell you that a good bit of that work is at the initiation of the chief of police. We have begun to try to frame this issue before you recognizing that the citizen review process can take on, as was pointed out, there is a current circumstance and then there is a separate issue of something of longer standing. Let me tell you just very briefly what some of the points of contention that we have in trying to fashion this thing before you. One, and this was also at the chief's comments. As Caroline pointed out, we have a tradition of the use of citizen boards and commissions. We do human rights, we do housing, we do parks, we do river fronts, we do all sorts of things. So the tradition is established. Our concern was one of the independent nature. How to achieve the independence that we hear the audience saying to you. Daryl Woodson made a comment that officers indicated that they were concerned that the chief had not appointed an outside agent. That has been one of the points of contention and criticism and it was his concern how do I do that effectively and achieve independence. The same would rest with you. How do you do that and achieve the independent nature. It has to be carefully crafted if it is going to do the right thing. We have in place labor contracts which the officers have. We have the Civil Service Commission. For the communities understanding, certain officers were named, there is some familiarity with those issues, Civil Service Commission was open, was public, all of those records were made available. And you certainly have the courts. It has to be carefully crafted and we have already begun the research talking to other communities, there are not a lot of them, but other communities on how we might make this thing work. I think that is important because most of the work and I may not have clarified satisfactorily when I had the press conference the other day with the chief, when I asked for a report on what happened, how it happened, why it happened. That was the beginning the to frame this very issue. And I am concerned that the chief is taking it on the chin for things that quite frankly at his initiation we are trying to put together on your behalf. The timing of the thing clearly rests with you. That is where it is.

Nov/ We did have a meeting scheduled for next week one day and we can ask some staff to do some research on how these boards have been conducted, have been established and we can discuss this at that time.

Kubby/ What is the date of that scheduled meeting?

Atkins/ 17th.

Kubby/ September 17, 4:00 - 8:00.

Atkins/ We have capital projects planned for that evening.

Nov/ We can set aside capital projects. They can wait.

Atkins/ We can frame this issue for you. I just want you understand that we don't want to run into the law on different points and end up defeating the very purpose what I think you are trying to achieve.

Kubby/ It may be that there are community members that have some ideas on how we can initiate this and have it be truly independent. I am sure people have ideas. Write them down. Send them to us. Call us, e-mail us, city manager's office. We are accessible but you have to access us for us to be accessible.

Patricia Vanrollins/ One more question. I am concerned when I hear we are framing the issue. Like whose is- We would not expect that the chief of police would be framing the issue.

Atkins/ The we is me. The chief reports to me, I report to them. Framing the issue means I will give them the elements of the process. It will be up to them to fashion it. I am assuming, Linda, it will be in a form of an ordinance or at the very least a resolution. The council, I think- Maybe, Pat, you are concerned about the language. The council is fully aware of what I do as I frame an issue for them. They, then, have the ability to turn it upside down, twist it, pull it all a part. We try to create-

Vanrollins/ I heard the we being like you and the chief of police.

Atkins/ The chief has made earlier recommendations. We are trying to put it together in a fashion that the council can react to legislatively which is their responsibility also.

Kubby/ As has the City Attorney.

Woito/ I have recommended it to the council. We talked about last night.

Nov/ And we also have to mention the fact that there is an insurance company conducting an independent outside investigation. Not only of this incident but of general procedures and practices.

Atkins/ One of the most critical elements, I would say, to the community is the definition of independence. It is very hard to fully achieve independence when I heard several of you say city council appoint. No, we want to do it. Well, what do you want to do? I think I understand the jist of it. But, again, that independence is not a perfect world and we are trying to make it as independent and again, the type of review authority. I guess the bottom line and again, it was mentioned by Caroline, I think the most is we have a tradition of strong citizen participation in our boards and commissions. And they haven't failed us very often.

Baker/ Steve, I can just pick up on that distinction that you referred to and that Caroline referred to which is the two issues. One, the long terms role of citizen review power and this particular case. I sense a direction that the council is moving into to see if that is feasible, how it would work, how it would be put together. Our hesitation tonight is not opposition or hostility. It is a recognition that it is more complex than I think we would have it be and that is going to take time to work out. The other issue do we need a separate review board investigation of this particular case, I would suggest has to wait until we get- It may take a week or ten more days until we have a starting point of those other investigations. We may find that the public may find that the results of that match their expectation of what justice is. I don't know.

Atkins/ And none of us know that.

Sheila Knopfoh-Odole/ I think everything that has been discussed here tonight is really valid and really important I really feel confident that it will go in the direction we need to. I want to restate a couple of ideas that I expressed earlier and when you mention the contracts, I think we should have it written into an officer's contract that any use of excessive force is an automatic termination of that contract. That is one idea. And again-

Thornberry/ We can write it but the union would have to accept it. That is in negotiations.

Knopfoh-Odole/ Certainly but I think it is something that is really important to think about, you know. And the second thing is do Iowa City Police really need to carry guns on their person, you know. I just- I don't know. I don't think so.

Nov/ We are going to take a break. However, if there is someone here who came for Public Discussion on another topic, I would like to give him a chance to speak before we take a break.

Kubby/ Thank you all very much for being here.

Nov/ Thank you for coming and thank you for bringing your concerns.